Church Membership
Jerry Bell May 13, 2002

Clay,

There is a big question in my heart concerning "Church Membership". I was a member of one denomination for about 36 years. Now, it seems that the Lord is placing my wife and me in various places for a "season" and then moving us to another place. After 3 years in the church that we just left, we are in another church in the city. We seem to make pastors nervous, even though we are not out "recruiting" people to leave with us. I have noticed that when you leave a church, you are called a "church hopper". When you come to a new church that they believe that the Lord "led you there".

I would like your input and the input of the List Members concerning the validity of church membership from a biblical perspective.

Jerry Bell jerrydbell@gsiwave.com

Response To "Church Membership" Pastor Francis Frangipane May 13, 2002

Dear List Members,

In a previous correspondence Jerry Bell has asked us to comment on "Church Membership" and the view of it from a Biblical perspective. While I will be the first to agree that we must be led of the Spirit of God in determining the Church we are to attend, more often than not, we saints use the slightest excuse to leave our appointed Church home.

Francis Frangipane's timely article on a neighboring prophetic website perhaps addresses, in an indirect way, some of Jerry's question.

http://www.inchristsimage.org

A War In Heaven (Part One)

If you have ever been through a church split, you are all too familiar with the terrible churning of emotions and the inconsolable distress that accompanies this descent into hell. If you are unfamiliar with the experience, expect that large factions of otherwise nice Christians will be pitted against one another. They will participate in slander, anger, deception, fear, bitterness, hatred, gossip, unforgiveness, strife, rebellion and pride.

Any of these attitudes, isolated in a single individual, would clearly be sin. However, when they occur en masse in a church split, they are somehow considered righteous. Anger is redefined as "fighting for a principle." Slander and gossip now enlist as allies "in search of the truth."

The epicenter of the split may have been localized in a single church, but the shock waves are felt across the area-wide body of Christ. News of the conflict is communicated in whispered tones, like when hearing of a family member who has a serious cancer. And it is a cancer -- a split is a malignant life system, a false growth that is empowered by anger, pride and ambition instead of the meekness and patience of Christ.

Citywide church leaders shake their heads and sigh. Even if they barely knew the troubled church, they suffer sympathy pains. They are concerned. Those who have experienced the heartache of their own split also shudder, as they remember the still unresolved conflict they carry regarding those who divided their church. Still other pastors become restless and more guarded over their flocks, wary lest the spirit of strife infiltrate their churches as well.

Additionally, the evangelists of the city know that, at least for a season, it will be harder to win the lost. Indeed, as rumors and details of the split reach the ears of the unsaved, the pettiness and politics that accompany a split remind the unbelieving world of why they are keeping their distance from church.

I have traveled throughout most of the Christian world speaking to pastors and church leaders. It is my experience that, while divisions are found everywhere, splits are more frequent and often more mean-spirited in America. Is it our fierce love of independence and freedom? Or is it because of our more aggressive cultural nature? Regardless, American splits tend to have the least civility.

The reasons for church splits are many. Divisions may originate from confusion concerning church governments. To whom has God really given final authority in any given congregation? Sometimes, the root of conflict is simply misguided ambition in one or more associate leaders. And, of course, there is always the issue of spiritual warfare. Often, just as a church begins an upward swing in attendance or spiritual growth, demonically manipulated strife emerges. So, we must ask ourselves: When we see a serious division in a church, are we really looking at the work of the same kind of spirit that manipulated Absalom, Korah or Jezebel?

Perhaps splits involve some combination of all of the above. Yet, regardless of the unique source of each division, Jesus warned that when our house is divided, it "cannot stand." Clearly, when a division strikes a church, its impact is felt throughout the community. It is a war in which the devil is the only one who wins. Heartache in Heaven
We may think the Lord is personally unfamiliar with the pain of a church split. He is not. In fact, pastors can take some comfort that God Himself, even in all His perfection, suffered a type of split. You will recall that, before the creation of man, heaven itself endured a time of great rebellion, a "split," if you will. Heaven itself could not fulfill the desires of Satan. In those days Satan was known as Lucifer or "Hillel Ben Shahar" in the Hebrew language. The name Hillel came from the root word, Hallel, which means "to praise, worship, adore"; Ben Shahar meant "son of the dawn." The implication is that Lucifer was the chief worship leader at the dawn of creation. Endowed with the gifts of leadership and creativity in music, his position was not enough for him. Fueled by jealousy and ambition, Lucifer led a third of the angels to rebel against the authority of God.

Consider the cunning of Lucifer, our ancient foe. He was able to actually convince angels, who were gazing upon the resplendent glory of God, that they could win a war against their Creator! In privileged awe they had seen galaxies emerge from the mouth of God. Yet somehow they came to believe that, under Lucifer's leadership, they could defeat the Almighty.

They knew God was fully cognizant of their every thought, yet they believed they could out-think Him. Through stealth, slander and seduction, Lucifer engendered discontentment among the angels so that the very pleasures of heaven could not satisfy them. He then lured them from the unimaginable splendor of God's Presence, convincing them the unfathomable outer darkness was more suited for their cause. Yes, consider the deceptive powers of our ancient foe and wonder not that he could separate good friends in a church split here on earth.

How long the rebellion in heaven lasted, we do not know. Or what deception Lucifer spun, it is not written. The Bible only grants fleeting reflections into that horrible, cataclysmic divide. Still, one wonders, did the Lord remain unaffected by the strife?

Was the Heavenly Father perfectly aloof from the pain of separation or did He actually feel heartache when those who were His friends and allies became traitors? Remember, God watched the great lie spread, infecting one angel after another, until a full third joined in the insurrection. Was this division the first great pain in the heart of God?

Beloved, consider also with trembling fear: Until this ancient split, to our knowledge, hell did not exist. Hell became a reality as a consequence to division.

Next week we will continue this theme, but for now let us seek the Lord in repentance for the sin of division. Let us position ourselves in intercession to see church splits and divisions among born-again Christians removed from the body of Christ.

Lord, forgive us for tolerating this terrible sin. Master, we know that our division is a blight upon Your people. Cleanse us of the effects of division and empower each of us with grace to bring unity to Your church. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Part 2 of A War In Heaven

Last week, as we discussed church splits, we marveled that heaven itself endured a time of strife where Lucifer challenged the leadership of God. The Scriptures reveal that a full third of the angels succumbed to the persuasion of Lucifer's spell. We do not know what lie the devil was able to weave, but that angels could, on the one hand, know God in His unlimited capabilities, yet believe a strategy could emerge that could defeat Him is a testimony to the unfathomable cunning of Lucifer's wiles.

Recognizing that Lucifer was able to divide so great a number of angels from God, we also should not be surprised that he is able to separate good friends during a church split. Let us, therefore, continue to remove the mask from Satan's activities and seek rather to be those who overcome him (Rev 12:11).

One truth that will help us defeat the enemy is knowing that, when a church is suffering the heartbreak of division, what seems to be the issues are often not the issue at all. Indeed, when Lucifer fell, from heaven's standpoint, he no longer retained the name Lucifer, but instead was called Satan or the devil. Both of these names reveal the nature of what we are fighting during a split, but let's first look at one of the definitions of the name "devil," which meant "slanderer." To slander means more than to speak evil of one to another. When describing the nature of Lucifer, it means "one who puts himself or some thing between two in order to divide them."

Satan's goal is not just to speak evil, but in slandering, his goal is ultimately to divide us. He will exaggerate one person's remarks and distort another's reactions. He will work to foil attempts to compromise and will continually manipulate divided Christians with new issues. It is a mark of a church under the influence of demonic attack that the criticisms of the divisive group continually reproduce, and without remedy. When Satan manipulates a splinter group within a church, they feel the issues are unsatisfiable. But remember, the issues are not truly the issue.

From God's perspective, the issues seemingly rising between opposing camps are purely a ruse used by Satan to divide and conquer a church. You see, the issue is not the color of the new carpet or the style of praise and worship or how long the sermon should be; the real issue is will we approach one another in the meekness of Christ and will we defend the unity of Christ within the fellowship?

Indeed, just as the devil's goal is to put himself or some thing between two to divide, so Christ puts Himself among us in order to unite. While He instructs us to honor the leaders within a church, He also tells us to prefer one another and submit to one another in holy fear. As we seek His forgiveness for our sins, He tells us His forgiveness is conditional: unless we forgive others, His mercy will be withheld from our need. And again, He decrees that if we are at the altar and there remember someone has something against us, we are to leave our offering and seek to be reconciled (Matt 5:23-24).

If You Are In A Split When division strikes a church, there are three groups that are usually involved. The first is the initiators of the division, the group with the issues. The second group is the current senior leader and the staff that has remained loyal to him. The third group is the largest and is comprised of those in the middle of the division. These are the innocent sheep who have relationships with leaders but are also friends with the dissenters. Hearing slander and rumors, they are confused and are unsure of what to believe or who to follow.

The dissenting group may use apparently spiritual issues to empower their cause: "We just want more of God." Or, "We want more freedom to grow." Such arguments seem both innocent and legitimate until we remember that anyone can seek God and enjoy more of Him at any time; there is no need to divide the church to personally have more of God's presence. The issues are much deeper than the style of worship.

Yet, two groups with separate leaders are rising in opposition in your church. Who do you follow? To discern the true shepherd among you, recall the wisdom of Solomon. When two women came, each claiming a baby was her own, he ordered the child to be split in two. The true mother begged that the child remain alive, even if it meant the baby would be raised by the lying woman. The false mother, however, agreed to let the baby be split in two. Solomon recognized that the one who loved the child the most, the true mother, would not allow her baby to be divided. Thus, he awarded her with her offspring (1Kings 3:16-27).

In your church, the true shepherd will be the one who seeks to keep your church together. He will not initiate a split as a solution. He will seek to settle the legitimate issues, while maintaining His focus on the higher issue of Christ-centered unity.

Lord, forgive us for allowing divisions and splits to become such deeply ingrained traditions in Christianity. Lord, we confess that we are easily manipulated and deceived by false issues. We confess our sins and seek cleansing. Make us instruments of healing. Help us to work with You to unite the church and prepare Your bride. Help us to see the real issue is, in all our diversity, will we remain united? In Jesus' Name. Amen.

Dear List Members,

Jerry Bell's question about church membership and the enclosed responses are bringing us to focus on a spiritual phenomenon now taking place in the Church worldwide - Upheaval and radical change. The Saints of God are finding it difficult to sit and participate in the works and institutions of men. Often our own religiosity and tradition would say "sit there" or "find another church" when in actuality the Spirit of God is simply saying "Get completely out of the system!"

The church we attend here in Hinesville is called "The Church With No Name." We have no steeple, no stained glass, no marquee naming our pastor and last week's Sunday School attendance, no reading of The Apostle's Creed, no choir, no organ, no ushers, and no tithe requirements to name but a few of the traditions that have been tossed. Tracy and I are but two of many who could not find a "church home" in which we were "at home" so we "went home" and waited on God.

God miraculously raised up "The Church With No Name" and soon others, who like us, who could not tolerate the church system any longer, began to fast and pray for what God wanted. With all traditions tossed to the wind, the Holy Spirit has begun to expose an entirely new form and format, the result of which has been true "substance" - that which only God can make!

What we are privileged to enjoy, week after week, are life changing experiences with the Holy Spirit in addition to exposure to all five folds of ministry. Often the designated speaker will introduce a particular subject after praying and hearing the Holy Spirit's lead. This spontaneously evokes ministry from others within the Body: Often the result is a five dimensional view of God's word on the subject as opposed to the traditional one.

One of our first great lessons in this 1st Century Church format has been to learn to separate our opinions from a true leading of the Spirit. Once this discipline is learned, ministries are birthed and set into motion, in addition to much ministry received from the stated five-fold. As you have no doubt noticed, Lighthouse Prophecy is conducted much the same way.

Jerry Bell's very important question about being led to different churches will be answered as we delve into the many transitions the present day Church is now undergoing. Eventually an unbearable restlessness amongst the true Saints of God will force change in one way or another - old churches embracing the "new" or new churches being raised up replacing the "old" (churches).

Though the Frangipane article and the comments I posted have met with resistance and perhaps some warranted criticism as a legitimate answer to Jerry's question, my reason for posting it was to set the tone of these discussions.

Admittedly, Pastor Frangipane's article presented the one dimensional pastoral view and perhaps reveals even further the need for the full five fold ministry, yet speaks to our ultimate goal and purpose which is to become one body, unified in purpose and vision - getting the bride ready for the bridegroom.

Those of you who know me personally and read much of what I write, know that my main vision, focus, and present earthly purpose is to see change come within the Church. Much of my writing is about upheaval and change and the need to separate from the traditions of men.

I believe that before the aforementioned unity, there will first be a great divide amongst God's people as we sense the restlessness within ourselves to find the real Church and the City of God, as opposed to man made institutions. There is a restlessness in the ranks of God's people and this restlessness is the forerunner to change:

Read a recently printed article entitled Restlessness: A Precipitator To Change and many other recently published articles on this subject posted at (www.lighthouseprophecy.com).

Please be encouraged to speak (write) as the Spirit leads. I sense we are embracing a subject about which God has much to say.

To Jerry Ball, whose question will provide many directional answers, I say be encouraged; the same question is being asked by many in the Body today...Clay.

Clay,

It is interesting that "more often than not, we saints use the slightest excuse to leave our appointed church home". Allow me to share some of these SLIGHTEST EXCUSES: It is believed that approximately 45% of pastors are involved in pornography. I would think that more than 99% of churches operate in the "one-fold" ministry, rather than a "five-fold" ministry. Pastors having an affair seems to be quite common. The focus of many churches seems to be financial.

I told my daughter that I felt that the Lord was telling me to leave the church that I was in and that I did not know where to go. Know what she said? She said, "Go home". Now that did not agree with my "religion" at all. Think about that. Are we as dependent on the pastor for our salvation as the Catholics are their priests?

Do we embrace a system that we know is not working as God intended simply because it is available to us?

What right do we have to call these organizations "churches"? Are they churches? You say that they are "skinning the sheep" with their teaching on tithes.

Do shepherds "skin" sheep? If a sheep is not supposed to be skinned by a shepherd, then why would you say that saints use the slightest excuse to leave a church? Is getting skinned a slight excuse? If the tithe issue is as unscriptural as implied on this website, then everybody should probably go back to the New Testament concept of home churches. That way, the "church" would not have the high overhead that required the skinning of sheep to survive.

Jerry Bell
jerrydbell@gsiwave.com

In response to Mr. Bell
Brother, go where God tells you to go ...Be a God pleasure and not a man pleaser...Once again these are man made rules and traditions... Obey the spirit of God... Your doing great.. God has evidently called you to intercede for different places he puts you ..do as he says and bless every where you go to change the situation as he reveals to you the good as well as the bad...You my friend are a sent one.....

Vern and Sue Gunter vrngun@earthlink.net

Dear Clay,
On the church membership issue and Frances Frangipane's, (who is a gifted man of God, and popular speaker at many churches and conferences) article, one should realize that his answer comes from only one side of the conflict issue. The "Church Leadership" side always defends itself. Just as a political party always defends itself. Right or Wrong. Rightwing or Leftwing advocates. The proof of who was right or wrong always comes at a later date.

Just a question, who would invite a "Speaker" to come to their church if he or she sided with the dissenters?

today...quote THE POLITICIAN

There is a vast difference between a prophet and a politician. The term "grass roots" refers to going out among large groups of people, and discovering what they desire. The politician then offers what the majority wants and as a result, becomes popular and is elected. In other words, the politician seeks out which way the majority are going. Then he stands in front of them and says, "Follow me."

But the prophet stands alone and says, "You are going the wrong way, turn around." The politician is popular because he relates to the majority. The prophet is never popular because his word is costly and requires change. People often are deceived because they choose that which is presently comfortable, rather than being willing to pay the price of "Truth."

"But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required" Luke 12:48. "For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives." Heb 12:6. ......end of quote

It's not a matter of right or wrong, membership or non membership, shepherd or sheep. It is the matter of, "what is God saying"? ..Blessings,

Nancy Deane Melbourne, FL

Clay,
I believe your response to Jerry's question was inappropriate. He was not talking about a split but about God speaking to him to leave after a time. I know that some people leave a church because of trivial reasons, but I also believe this is a much smaller number than most people realize.

Most Christians will only leave a church after much prayer and confirmation that this is indeed Gods will. Many times Christians actually want to stay at the church they are in, but God is commanding them to leave. "Church Hopping" has been preached from the pulpit to control and keep God's people in their place!!!!!

Cindy Heise soupercin@hotmail.com

Dear Clay, Jerry and list,

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ...enough. That is the Church that defeats the gates of Hades.

I have been at one time or another a member, officer or regular attendee and/or pulpit filler in many protestant, evangelical and a couple of catholic abominations...oops. I agree with Francis Frangipane that the goal of unity is an important one. I am convinced however that the goal of unity in the WHOLE body of Christ supercedes all other striving for unity for the reasons given in John 17:20-23. I don't mean lets keep our divisive differences and learn to live together. Its time to grow out of them.

As we examine local assemblies and their eccentricities, even as our Lord does in Revelation 2 & 3 it is hard to find one that meets any standard of perfection. So if one's reason for moving to another assembly has to do with a search for perfection it is fruitless. That said, there are many who have been called and chosen to serve in some position of leadership but are young enough in the faith not to know how to respond. They travel in search of a place to serve and find door after door closed but to 'Members Only.' That is because the local assembly leadership has not learned its reason for existence. "for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:12,13

Look around. How many church members have achieved this goal?

The reason for the five (or seven) fold ministry is to train up leaders, not to make the congregation dependant on one. Just as there are differing anointed offices there are different callings. An evangelist call keeps one on the move. There are budding evangelists in the body of Christ. Would we call an evangelist a church hopper because he packs up and leaves?

An apostle is something of a traveler or he is not an apostle. A prophet goes where God sends him or her depending on what God says, and so far as I have seen God does not tell a prophet to prove himself to denominational leadership before he goes and warns a church or encourages it to move ahead. Teachers should move less frequently perhaps but some have lessons we all need. Do we want to stop these important members from moving about as God leads? Of course not. But pastors are uncomfortable with freedom of movement in the body.

That is
1) because they are shepherds with a shepherd's anointing and have local unity and safety uppermost in their hearts. Most have needed to repair damage done to their flock by itinerates who are self designated evangelists, prophets, apostles or teachers. But they stop their flock's spiritual growth by too protective coddling. Struggles make spiritual muscles.

2) Others are working under a spirit of fear. This is fear of loss of support. They seek to make the church dependant on pastor because the pastor is dependant on the congregation. This is not to say pastors should not be professional and supported 1 Corinthians 9 makes it clear that pastors (and other ministers) are oxen that should be fed for their work! :-)

But in the U.S. environment of competition, godliness is often equated with financial success. The faith movement has helped foster this unfortunately. Pastors are in a competition for the best pastor's car in town and they get just as tied to car payments as the unfortunate worker who is enslaved to his 9 to 5 job. To preserve support, the church down the block may become a target of a series of sermons on Grace or on Holiness so as to draw distinctions of emphasis and keep the flock coming to the 'right' emphasis, the 'truth.' Some pastors are so fearful they continually make mountains out of molehills by emphasizing more insignificant differences. When our adversary adds spirits of control, slavery and religion to this mix, the church infected by this unholy trinity all backed by fear (which is a power) has to build walls to keep itinerate believers out, not because they are wolves in sheep's clothing, but because with fresh eyes they may see the bondage under which the people in that body labor.

Membership Divisions:

The biggest and most ancient divisions in Christendom are organized by Diabolos (who casts between) usually around differences of opinion on doctrinal issues. Men who have achieved some recognition as theologians harden their opinion during and after writing some book or thesis. Book sales and their reputation is at stake based on pundit and peer acceptance of their thesis. Then they perpetuate an imperfect thesis by requiring others who follow them to sing the same song to gain a Doctorate. We are still eating at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Satan still directs us there.

So one theologian touts, "Chosen from the foundation of the world." and his opposition theologian points to, "The soul that sinneth it shall die." Without stressing it too much here I want to point out that the Word of God is right both in the predestination passages and in the holiness passages and that the Wesley/Armenius camp and the Calvinist camp are both arguing from an incomplete soteriology. But where the rubber meets the road, the Presbyterian/Baptist or Vineyard and the Methodist/Wesleyan or Pentecostal churches and all nuances between form up along doctrinal and organizational differences and instead of seeking truth to eventually eradicate them, exhibit the same dreary demonically inspired prideful divisiveness that split the ancient church over whether Christ has one or two natures. The winner gets to excommunicate the loser. That is not winning.

So then heresy for one becomes present truth for another and the battle ensues. Satan must be laughing. He certainly learned more from Gideon's battle than the church has. So the church, which is the army of the Kingdom of God (not the whole Kingdom) is encamped and fighting it out between battalions rather than taking the high ground. For a Church on the move, the more soldiers that show up for reveille the better.

Young Christians need to be fed. Grade school level churches that feed them should feed them well and bless them when they move on to other pastures. The eventual goal here is this simple understanding found in Ephesians 4:4 - 6 "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So since the Word of God is true and is not a lie, there is one body. What is the problem? No problem with God.

David Hallowell peace@cris.crimea.ua

Clay,
I realize that this "thread" is a little off the original topic of church membership, but I must disagree with some of Frangipane's conclusions in his article. One famous split was that between Saul and David. Saul saw the anointing on David as the next king, saw his kingdom being ripped from him, and sought to destroy David. David left Saul. He did not bring others with him, yet others came to join him while in caves.

Not every split is bad or is of the devil. Why does everyone who sees a split believe it is of Satan? Did not Jesus come with a sword?

That is exactly what happens in a church split. I have seen Saul in the pulpit attempting to control David in the pew too often to think that it is always a demonic thing to see a church split. That is not to say that it is always this way, but for the sake of balanced perspective, let us at least acknowledge that it is possible for God to set people at variance to separate, consecrate, preserve, and perfect.

Furthermore, why do we always assume that when someone curses us or slanders us, it is always of the enemy?

2Sa 16:5 And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came.
6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left.
7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial:
8 The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man.
9 Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head.
10 And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so?
11 And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him.
12 It may be that the LORD will look on mine affliction, and that the LORD will requite me good for his cursing this day.
13 And as David and his men went by the way, Shimei went along on the hill's side over against him, and cursed as he went, and threw stones at him, and cast dust.

Why do we not look, examine ourselves, and determine if we are being chastised? Note that David was STILL a man after God's own heart through all of this. Do we not go through trials? Are all trials of the enemy? I say no. Church splits are no different.

Troy LaPlante
tlaplante@nc.rr.com

Clay,

I would also like information on this concerning Church Membership. We, too, have been in three churches in the past 4 years, and have felt led of the Lord in every case. I know we are not the only ones because many people we know are experiencing the same thing. What do you believe is going on? We have been called church hoppers, but I don't believe this is the case. We have seen a lot of garbage in the churches which is really causing alarm in many of us. There seems to be a "lukewarmness" that is nearly suffocating.....or "control".....or "sensationalism."

Where is the balance? What is going on spiritually? Actually, I know in my spirit what it is....I just need some confirmation.

Dear Clay,

Such excellent posts on Church membership!! And great teaching by Pastor Hallowell.

In a previous post I spoke about my own experience in the cave of Adullam, and then discovered that I had plenty of company of bruised and battered saints in similar circumstances! I have come to realize that all along it was the Lord's doing to get me out of a mess, get my attention and teach me Himself some things I could not learn otherwise. Praise His name.! Allow me to share briefly a few of the things He spoke to my spirit:

1. "Church " as we have known it for 2000 years is no more-only those of which he remains the true head and focus will remain. 2. 21st century church is now a global entity-with international membership-joined by a desire for Him and Him alone, and totally sold out to no other agenda, or "vision" but His. 3. That the restlessness felt by so many saints and the dismay at the travesties done in his name, were put there by Him, to move us from where we were and what we thought was church-to where He is and what He says is church. 4. That this "divine discontent" as it were, would cause us to desire Him for Himself, and not His gifts, or prosperity or any such thing. 5. That the only reason for us to gather together was for times of corporate worship when the sound would ravish His heart 6.That the "five fold" would still be very much in operation, but not all at one time or in the same place. Yet the body would be edified and would still grow up into the fullness of Him. 7.That we would pastor each other, and evangelize the lost, that small groups would sent out apostles, that prophets would still give His Word and whether face to face or via internet-the anointing would still be on it. To set captives free destroy yokes and remove burdens.

This speaks of so many paradigm shifts I have lost count--but HE is still speaking, and I am still listening. I have so many questions-What will become of all these beautiful buildings? He says-I take no pleasure in them. What will become of all these different ministries? He says-What is of man and for man and is not of me will come down.

Saints, God is about to change the whole concept of church-and since it is His and not ours, I for one am listening carefully.

Eileen, David, Cindy et al, this is what the Lord has been speaking to me, radical, is He not?

Prayerfully submitted,

Ada
doctorada@coralwave.com

Dear Clay:

On the issue of "Church Membership", I agree with Nancy Deane 100%. We must always look at what colors a persons opinion or belief system on a subject. The only one without any smack of "hidden agenda" whatsoever is "God". He is ultimately the "ONE" and "ONLY ONE" we will answer to for what we do. I learned a long time ago that when we stand before our Father and He asks us why we did the things we did, I would think it should be, "because I believed with my whole heart I did what you asked me to do Father---------------and I was being obedient to "YOU" and "YOU" alone. I don't believe it should be because Pastor so and so or brother or sister him or her said I should do this or that. I don't think that response would hold too much weight.

Everyone that is a Christian should read 1st Kings chapter 13 and find out what happens to those that do not listen to the "Voice of God" for themselves. They fall into deception and that deception leads to disobedience and disobedience leads to death---------whether physical or spiritual. When I read that years ago, I knew then and still do that I better listen to the voice of God and not man----no matter what he thinks is right for me or anyone else, including his interpretation of scripture. The bottom line that will always be the bottom line is "God Reigns Supreme" and when Jesus said, "Father, make them one as you and I are one", He meant for each one of us to follow His direction by doing what Our Father tells each one of us to do as an individual through the Guidance of the Holy Spirit and not man's flesh, who so many times tells us he is operating in the spirit. None of us know the true "motive" of anyone else--------- ---but God does, and no one else knows our own motive better than God and our own self. When we stand before Him as an individual, it will only be God and self with all the true motives of self naked before God.

I have Christian friends who think its terrible that Catholics follow whatever the Pope says and yet they are the very ones that follow whatever big name Pastor, Evangelist or Prophet so and so SAYS; those that are out there speaking and preaching proclaiming they too are an "oracle of God" and have followings that believe everything they speak as gospel. That is a very scary thing to me. Anything beyond preaching repentance and Christ crucified needs to be checked out by each individual.

I shudder when I teach and pray that each individual that sits under my teaching or writing, will still go before the Lord and "ASK HIM" what "HE" is telling them and if what I share confirms that or simply shows them the Holy Spirit is moving them in another direction. Let's face the truth. All of us have a box we have God in and it's a difficult experience when God begins to tare down those walls forcing us out of the box to totally depend on Him and where HE wants to take us by His Holy Spirit. Flesh feels more secure in a box from the get go. The womb, the buggy, the car, the house, the office, the stores, the buildings, and the church building too with all its physical and spiritual walls attached. I wonder if that was the reason why Jesus taught so much outside rather than in the synagogue, hoping we would get the message: "Father, make them one, as you and I are one."

When we come into that oneness with God, then they will know we are Christians by our love, because no more will other Christians judge us by our particular belief on an issue, they will know that God is our only true Judge and will set each one of us right on any doctrinal differences we have had. As long as we allow the enemy to divide the Church through all these doctrinal issues--------------the Church is not victorious. We know the way the world looks at the Church, it certainly is not turning the world upside down. Much of it is spewing a lot of division and hatred out there like a volcano that makes a loud eruption spiting out fire and flowing lava and then fizzles down to nothing but hard rock. It certainly makes a good show.

The Church will not come into the real power of God with just a few operating in the "gifts of the spirit." The real power of the Church will begin when God's people learn to operate in Love, which is defined for us in 1Corinthians 13. When that truly happens, the world will be turned upside down and the "gifts of the spirit" will simply be the norm. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit". He did not say we would know them by the gifts. Even Paul tells us without Love we are a clanging cymbal. When the Church allows the walls of division to come down and the only thing they have is Love-------------------this earth won't even be a box big enough to hold The Bride of Christ. We will need a "new earth". For Love is the Key and "God is Love" for HE IS THE KEY. "Let us, "Love One Another."

Thank you and the rest of the Body for letting me email my beliefs and opinions on this issue. I wish to express above all that I send these comments in love as it is so difficult to share one's heart on paper which is void of a physical tone in expressing our words.

In Christ,

Gini Ruhlman giniisreal@yahoo.com God Is Love Ministries Int'l
Dallas, Texas

Bro Clay,

It is indeed a mystery to a bible scholar as to why the "church membership" question arises. There is no biblical teaching to suggest any such establishment. We are added to the Church (Body of Christ) by receiving Him as Savior. When He comes into our spirit - He is Lord! We don't make Him our Lord - He is our Lord.

All who come into this place in Him have the Spirit of adoption whereby we cry, "Abba Father". We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. ALL (both Jew and Gentile) are in the family of God. And by the way (and you will receive some static on this if printed) the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher are a ALL servants and not exalted leaders. Being used in two or three of these areas of servitude, it is vital we teach others of their standing in God and WHO HE IS in us.

The shaking that has been going on (God has risen terribly to shake the entire earth) is ridding us of the earthly (carnal) encumbrances we received in the religious system. THANK GOD.

Shalom

Mary Roden
Spoken Word Ministries
maryroden@tds.net
Hi Clay,
Reading Francis Frangipane's response to "Church Membership" I wondered how the topic got completely shifted to "church splits." Membership to any church organization, in my understanding, is not a Biblical teaching.....we are all members of the Church of Jesus Christ by accepting the free gift of salvation through the blood of Jesus. The issue of divisions in the church is addressed in 1 Corinthians 1:12 by the apostle Paul where he cautioned the believers giving allegiance to any teacher or following. Divisions in the church today are most note worthy in the form of various denominations within the Body of Christ. How were most denominations formed?.....probably by church splits.

So, getting back to the issue of church membership, by choosing one denomination over the other, giving it allegiance and disengaging ourselves from others, causes the Body of Christ to be divided. Peter asked the questions, "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? We might want to ask the same questions about the denomination and its leadership we pledge our allegiance to....Was the leadership crucified for us? Were we baptized into the name of our denomination? Is Christ divided? If we all claim to be following Christ, why must we choose one local gathering over the next? Why can't we accept one another even though we do not attend the same meetings?

How do we attain true unity in the Church of Jesus Christ? By conforming to certain denominational doctrines? or by seeking the Lord with all our heart and loving our brethren in Christ no matter where they gather in the name of the Lord? We are the Body and Christ is the Head. Often the greatest division found in the church is that of severing the Head from the Body. Following certain leaders or denominations contribute to this abomination.

This is where the issues of "church membership" and "church splits" really are related in that they draw attention away from Christ onto men and their ability to organize. In my estimate, if we seek to follow the Lord wherever He would lead, putting Him in His rightful place as the Head, we will come into unity of the faith, experiencing Christ as our teacher, councilor, high priest, and shepherd. As the Body of Christ comes to a revelation of what the church is and truly ought to be, membership, denominationalism, and the organization known today as "the church" will likely be dissolved.

Blessings!
Shirley Lise
riverpub@sgci.com

Church Membership Question Revisited Various May 15, 2002

Dear List Members,

The comments evoked from Jerry Bell's question about being led from one church to another have been all over the board, some seemingly direct to the question and some indirect. I have prayed for understanding in some of the responses and sense a deeper revelation and comprehension of God's heart on this subject, most of which is to allow God to put in your heart what He may, and simply follow it without respect to man, denomination, or doctrine.

I trust that some of these correspondences have begun to shed light on Jerry's question and his subsequent request for input from List Members. I trust we will all begin to pray over our words (correspondences) in-as-much- as many people are ministered to through what is written here.

Though some of the comments seem to skirt the original question, perhaps there is some divine relationship to our discussions - you be the judge. Please feel free to communicate directly to individuals if your comments are not relative to the entire list...Clay.

This is a response to David Hallowell's response:

I feel that it is very unfair to call any church an abomination. I am a member of the Catholic church and at this time the Lord has pulled me away as He is doing with many here. I am waiting on His direction and have been for a couple of years. I also will defend the Catholic church.

I know it is as most are made up of a diverse group of people. Some members are going for the sole ability to claim they are very involved church members to elevate their place in society, and there are others there that have a relationship with the people but not with Jesus, and others that are Holy Spirit filled followers of Christ and spend every moment in His presence.

To call any that are following the Lord is an abomination and truly a blind statement. I also know many priests and they too fall into the various areas that the congregation falls into and I do believe by what I have witnessed that the anointed are the ones in the heaviest battles where the principalities are using every means to bring about their fall. For one example, I have seen one that spent many hours before the Lord before even attempting to speak to the congregation brought down by the claims of a nun of the church because she did not like what this priest did to "her" budget. I am not speaking of the recent news but on that subject I believe what the Lord tells me and the simple truth that He spoke of to me is that what we are witnessing is His sifting.

Praise His Holy Name and His wondrous Grace. We are all brothers and sisters in His Service and we should be lifting each part of His body up not tearing it all down. Allow the Lord to be the judge and jury of what we do, we all have to answer to Him and allow each of us to follow the commandment to love one another. Love the person, call sin a sin, and do not throw a whole segment of His children into a category of abomination.

God bless you Cat Helms Hismercy4us@hotmail.com

Dear brother Clay,

After much prayer and seeking YHVH, HE has given me the following Scriptures for perusal and obedience to HIM.

JOHN 15:19. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

1 CORINTHIANS 11:3 a, c. Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is THE ANOINTED ONE (CHRIST), ...and the head of THE ANOINTED ONE IS (GOD) ELOHIM.

They address the heart of the problem and are too often ignored. Man finds it easier to heed another man, whom he can see, rather than follow the prompting of THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom he cannot see. Man does not like change and will tolerate all kinds of falseness, error and sin rather than have to leave their old familiar place.

We must discern the source of our discomfort. When one has that answer, there should be no hesitation, it should be settled. But, unfortunately, obedience is another thing altogether, even when Scripture is very clear on the matter.

1 SAMUEL 15:22. "Does YHVH delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying THE VOICE OF YHVH? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

I see a lot of worldly behavior in the comments and searching. This is a Spiritual matter and is not fathomable by the flesh.

2 CORINTHIANS 6: 16b-18. "...we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. Therefore come out from them and be separate, says YHVH. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you. "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters," says YHVH SABAOTH.

The choice is clear! Be careful to judge no man, that is not your right, but make your choice with a clean heart and act on it. What are you waiting for? Soon it will be too late because you refuse to know the day of your visitation. Confusion is a tactic of the enemy to keep you from following THE ONE who called you.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19. This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Respectfully submitted,
Magdala,
magdala777@aol.com
Doorkeep for THE ARK

Church Membership-The Heart Of The Matter
Hallowell/Fargarson

May 16, 2002

Dear List Members,

Perhaps the enclosed post fires an arrow into the heart of Jerry Bells's question. Both ministered to me and I trust they will also minister to you...Clay.

Hello Clay,

I have been reading the posts to the Lighthouse prophecy list for a few months now but have never offered any response. The latest discussion though prompts me to write regarding church. I left church some 8 months ago at the guidance of the Lord. I cannot express just how awesome it has been to be free from the religious oppression that is the church. My family and I have faced much criticism for this decision, including that from our closest friends and family. It is hard not to lash out at the religious spirit which motivates such criticism. It is hard to watch them continue to practice empty religion. But I know the truth. Yeshua is not coming for the church. He is coming for the Bride. Many will say to Him, "Lord, did not we love Your church? Did not we give of our time and resources for the church?" They will be surprised when He says " Depart from me, I never knew you."

I hear many people offering complaints about church and churches, but few people are coming to the truth. The truth is that church is an impostor. The church is an illegitimate child of the ekklesia (the word Yeshua used to describe His Body and the world system). Early on the deceiver sowed his seeds into the ekklesia and they quickly took root and brought fruition. The result is what we now know as the church which is an offspring of harlotry. The Lord allowed this, but now the distinction is being made. The unrest that many are feeling is due to the revealing of the truth concerning the true Kingdom.

Many seem to believe that the church will be redeemed, and I can relate because I had that hope as well. But I am now convinced that Yeshua isn't interested in the church. He is interested in the Bride of Christ who is distinct from the church. I believe that the redemption is going to come as people begin to recognize the church for what it is -- a harlot-- and leave to become the ekklesia. Let him who has ears to hear, hear what the Lord is saying to His ekklesia.

Worthy is the Lamb,
Michael
mbfofltn@juno.com

Dear Clay, Catherine Helms and list. Also Dianne and others who reacted as those blessed...praise God.

In my last post if you read the offending sentence carefully you will see that was not singling out Catholic abominations above all the other abominations, which is a word play on denominations. Perhaps so as to more completely deserve that accusation I do so now with love, but without apology.

U.S. Catholicism is one of its mildest forms. I know the Holy Spirit has made big changes in many people in the American Catholic Church and I trust He is not finished changing them and others, but have you seen the blood on the streets of Mexico City where peasants crawl to the shrine of the virgin of Guadeloupe which is a pagan goddess transmigrated into Mary worship, or heard of the way Evangelicals are killed by Catholics in southeastern Mexico? Is not killing your fellow believers an abomination? But that is an old story with Catholics. Albigenses, Waldenses, Anabaptists, and others have been tortured, burned and had their properties stolen by the "church" of Rome for offenses like rebaptising believers the church had sprinkled as infants or possessing Bibles, horrors!

Have you read the news about the modern pogroms in Siberia where Eastern Church Orthodox Catholics have declared the Jesus film immoral and are burning out Christians because they do not worship in the Orthodox Temple!

When I speak of abomination I am not using the word in the general Webster's sense. It is a spiritual abomination. I also do not mean the sincere believers and seekers after God in each. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. What I am addressing is the way paganism, which is patently demonic, has been perpetuated through the church from the time of Constantine who created the "Catholic" Church with the help of some Christian bishops (head elders), most of which were by all historical accounts illiterate and had little Scripture other than an epistle or targum to guide them at that.

But no less than three Pagan priests were also enlisted to "properly" organize Christianity! He brought the professional priesthood into Christendom, which simply stole away an office granted to every believer through Jesus Christ. According to the Scripture we do not need an interlocutor with our heavenly father other than Jesus Christ.

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time," 1 Timothy 2: 5 & 6

(The time is due now!)

1 Peter 2
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 1 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

(Catherine you are a king...queen maybe?...and a priest!)

But a political church where Christians aren't really Christians but pagans forced to change religion on pain of death is a different kettle of fish...stinking fish. It was after this politicizing of Christianity that Passover was changed into Easter which name is but a modern form of the name of the pagan fertility goddess of Spring. namely Eostre, Ostera, Astarte or Ishtar. 'Easter' in the KJV is Pascha (Passover) in the original Greek. The Greek and Russian Orthodox Church did get the name right.

The Ancient Babylonians believed that an egg of great size fell from heaven into the Euphrates River. From this egg Astarte was hatched. So today the 'innocent' egg hunt, the Tiffany eggs, and the Russian wooden painted eggs, often with a picture of Mary on them have origins in pagan Astarte worship - as does Mary worship). Northern European Druids, Sun worshipping Egyptians and Bacchus worshipping Greeks all used eggs to symbolize fertility. Thus the rites of fertility were introduced into the faith that was unquenchable by mere persecution.

Christmas is also an abomination! Without getting into Santa Claus. remember the partridge in a pear tree or and the twelve days of Christmas? Where did that and gift giving to one another come from? It was all from the Roman 12 day winter festival of Saturnalia which ends in a big celebration on the 24th of December! Saturn worship was "Christianized." It is an abomination!

The Babylonian myth of Nimrod reborn as Tammuz brought us the evergreen tree. The tree is an important part of pagan worship in many countries. The Druids had the sacred oak which gave us holly and mistletoe. Egyptians had the palm and in Rome it was the fir which was decorated with red berries during Saturnalia! Scandinavians believed Odin bestowed special gifts at yuletide to those who approached the sacred fir tree.

The following Biblical references all show that a green tree is part of pagan idol worship. Deuteronomy 12:2; 1 Kings 14:23; 2 Kings 14:23; 2 Kings 17:10; 2 Chronicles 28:4; Isaiah 57:5; Jeremiah 2:20; Jeremiah 3:6, Jeremiah 3:13; Jeremiah 17:2; Ezekiel 6:13. The Jeremiah passages equate this with prostitution! In pagan rites this was BOTH spiritual and actual prostitution connected with fertility god and goddess worship. The spirit of prostitution is one of the seven high place or abomination spirits we found in the city God chose to teach us spiritual warfare. It is about corruption or selling what should be free or selling one's allegiance to demons....selling out...cop out, compromise, or peace at any price. It stinks in the nostrils of God.

Thus the Catholic church fostered the reformation by selling millions of pieces of "the cross of Christ" or other talisman relics to "Christian" pagans to help them buy their way out of purgatory as though that were necessary or possible. One Bible reading anti-Semitic monk caught on...Martin Luther.

Today Rome's daughters sell conferences ($60,000 up net), tapes (almost all profit), books (that sell conferences and visa versa), CDs and films because there is big money in selling truth.

But the wisdom of the word says, Proverbs 23: 23 :Buy the truth, and do not sell it, Also wisdom and instruction and understanding." Why is this? Because truth is too precious to corrupt and those who sell it will always be tempted to water it down to make more sales to those who cannot stand the unsullied truth. They may even start out pure but market knowledgeable advisers stop them from "financial loss" by softening edits. Here is a simple truth table to remember: TRUTH + a tiny lie = LIE.

But we have only touched half of the Christmas picture. Yeshua was not born at the end of the Roman (Julian or Gregorian) calendar year but at the end of the Jewish one! Count months starting from when Zechariah, John the Baptist's father's Abijah course of Aaronic priests served in the Temple then went home to beget John, and we have Mary meeting Elizabeth at the end of the festival; of Dedication (Chanukah) when Jesus was apparently conceived by the Holy Spirit. Then nine more months puts our Lord's birth at Rosh Hashanah or by another counting Tabernacles, Fall camping season, which makes sense as the shepherds were watching their flocks by night. This is not a winter activity. This also fits Josephus' account of a comet and Herod's death. Yeshua came to fulfill all the Torah and the Prophets (OT) Matthew 5:17 So the very Jewish Feast days which the Church has walked away from are fulfilled in Yeshua our Messiah. They teach us about him.

The three Biblical fall festivals are and spring festival of Pesach are all closely associated with the birth, life and death of our Lord. Yeshua was announced as an arriving King by (the Feast of) Trumpets. [Rosh Hashanah] The Torah became flesh and Tabernacled among us [Succot]! No pagan substitute festival can begin to teach us all of the rich significance of this.

It is a picture of the baby in sukkah, of the vulnerably human but perfectly divine life of the first Son and last Adam, of the seven days of creation and the seven years of testing at the end of the age when He will come again. Then comes the Great Judgment. His sacrifice provided for our Atonement [Yom Kippur], which even now is sufficient for us to enter the Holy of Holies without fear. He is the (Jewish) Passover [Pesach] Lamb, slain for our redemption in the Father's sovereign will from the foundation of the world. Jews did not kill him. He came to die for us. Through His blood we have freedom from death of the firstborn, by the sacrifice of "the firstborn of all creation," and we have an inheritance in the promised land or New Jerusalem made a lively hope by His resurrection. Through His flesh or pure yeast free bread of life we have sustenance during our hurried escape from the slavery of sin.

The church began to persecute Jews and move all celebrations so as to disentangle Christianity from Judaism, thus losing much truth and gaining many more abominations. The political, emperor-created church went from persecuted to persecuting, from open revelation to closed, from truth loving to mysterious and occult, from running from imperialism to perpetuating it, from a level ground for all believers to a hierarchical (Nicolaitan?) man-made system that bears little if any resemblance to Biblical pictures of the Church of Jesus Christ.

The Bible was only allowed Catholics after the Protestants made them so ubiquitous that forbidding them was unrealistic. I have an old friend who is a defrocked Catholic Priest from Turkish Antioch. He was kicked out of the church and even his own home for reading the Bible and discovering salvation and other truths there. The Protestant and Evangelical abominations do not suppress the truth so blatantly. They just specialize in the truth they like best and ignore or reinterpret the rest to fit man made doctrines and forbid teachers who are more balanced. One glaring example is the well known modern church that blocks out ministers who teach other eschatology than pretribulation rapture, which by-the-way is a very dangerous and unscriptural doctrine.

Sex Scandals Did you know that Roman clergy celibacy was created not to stop sex but to enrich the church by forestalling the financial obligations of marriage? Did you know that Pope Leo the first (440-61) acknowledged married clergy and that as late as Pope Gregory the 7th in the eleventh century there were married Roman Catholic Priests that he dictated were to live celibate with their wives? How unnatural and unrealistic that one was. Orthodox priests are still required to marry by the way.

The recent priest sex scandals in America are nothing very new. Priests and popes from ancient times have satisfied their sexual urges with prostitutes, relatives and clergy of both genders. Let us not dwell long on the bones of infants in shallow graves on "sacred" church property!

No Catherine, I am not blind and neither have honest churchmen been. In the 13th century St. Boniventure who was a Cardinal and Franciscan General described Rome as 'just like the Harlot of the Apocalypse.' When Luther visited pope "St" Boniface the 8th it cemented his resolve to go ahead with his revolution as the pope was living in sin, copulating with a woman and her daughter both! What Luther did not know was that was just the tip of the iceberg in a history of papal abominations. Doesn't speak well for the ridiculous doctrine of papal infallibility does it?

Ezekiel 17: 24 "And all the trees of the field shall know that I, the LORD, have brought down the high tree and exalted the low tree, dried up the green tree and made the dry tree flourish; I, the LORD, have spoken and have done it."

But the sons and daughters of Harlot Rome can be seen in the mirrors of protestant and evangelical homes. What a legacy. Right now there are some big names in evangelical circles who have chosen to use money given them for the Lord's work to live profligate lives. It is tragic to say the least and more than dangerous. The judge is at the door.

The abomination is not the good and faithful within the man-made church systems. It is the lie that these systems and clergy are the ordained righteousness of God enforced by some miracle of wealth and position. It is depending on man to build what God through Christ Jesus said He would do and to use the sin-sick world's methods of self promotion to corrupt and discourage those sincere believers and seekers after truth that remain. It is demonic infiltration of the organized church that is neither organized nor run to God's plan.

A word to the West. One way the enemy has done this is to make modern man less aware of his presence. If you don't believe in demons you cannot see them. The roots of this war are spiritual and monetary. This and information manipulation is where there is always a very hot war going on. Some of the slickest literature is the most demonic. But post modern young people believe in angels. They just have a hard time telling what side they are on.

Repentance is the way to deliverance. Lift up your heads. There is a lively hope for all of us.

Revelation 3 17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'; and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked; 19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

The prophesied time of falling away is coming to an end. Jesus Christ has all authority in heaven and on earth and His power grows every time a saint repents and says, "yes" to his loving commands.

We are now entering the Kingdom age. Rejoice! Fulfill your destiny and purpose. Build a real and warm relationship with your heavenly Father. By the way list friends, I am not a pastor though I enjoy serving them. I am a servant of God with another calling.

David Hallowell
peace@cris.crimea.ua

Various May 17, 2002

Clay, The lord gave to me a few weeks ago. I feel this is timely in this discourse. I appreciate your forum.

God bless! Dan. dan1cel2@att.net

I am unveiling my bride in this hour just as the women in Afghanistan are being unveiled. The world has never seen my bride because of "veils that vex" and "robes that rob". I am lifting the veil and ripping it in twain so that it can no longer be used. As the veil was rent at the death of my flesh so also will this renting of this veil bring death to the works of the flesh.

The rules and "doctrines of devils" that have been draped over my love, my bride, are coming off!

My bride has been confined to houses of condemnation with walls of fear and doubt. Doubting me because of the falsity of traditions of men that have made my word of none effect. None effect, no results; thus doubt.

My arms have been covered. Arms that can’t reach and love because they are draped with beautifully disguised garments that choke and bind. Beautiful palaces full of slaves. Slaves to kings that love the very things that have them bound.

I will remove colorful robes of self-righteousness. These must be removed before the robe of my righteousness can be placed upon your shoulders. I will not place mine over yours. Without my righteousness, my kingdom will not come.

My anger has been kindled because of my love for my bride. I am going to whip out the moneychangers once more. The piety and notoriety of flesh are a stench in my nostrils. I am going to kick over tables of self and destroy the chairs of elevation.

They have wrapped my brides legs with tight fabric of overt-submission. I am your Good Shepherd and you shall not want! The reason why there has been want is because of surrogate shepherds that under-feed and over-work! I will make haste!!

I will remove the robes that have been placed over my bride. After the disrobing and uncovering you will feel uncomfortable and naked without your old robes {ways}. But just like Adam and Eve in the garden you won’t be ashamed. The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil brings shame {mans ways}. The fruit of the Tree of Life is the peaceable fruit of righteousness. My righteousness!

They have covered my heart! My heart is for others! Yet they keep my bride in houses, confined for their own pleasures. My jealously over my lover is overtaking my patience!! I have called but they have not heard. I am raising an army of those who will heed my call and use them to bring heaven to earth. {Isa. 45:8}

My Church has been taking baby steps because its legs cannot move due to restrictions placed upon them by their "kings and the kings’ kingdoms". They have placed themselves as the head and only left eyes to peer out. Eyes that look but cannot see.

My body is what functions on this earth. If it is covered up and confined it is dysfunctional! The defiling of my Holy scripture has been twisted and used to control and manipulate my body. Used as tools of divination. I imparted gifts to men so that my body could function in its purpose for my will to be done on earth as it is in heaven!! My will is being hindered because my body has been "wrapped up" and confined. Anything that is anti-body is anti-Christ! Any time you see the anti-Christ spirit at work you will find bondage. I am come to set the captives free!!

I am the head, you are the body. I am not a freak! I am attached to my body. I feel your yearning. As you feel the rumblings of my Spirit it will bring light to wrong mindsets and patterns of wrong thinking. The eye is the light of the body, if the eye is single the body is full of light. The eye is the mind. Your mind must be renewed. Come before me and I will set you free. Free from doctrines of men and devils.

Learn to embrace my light {revelation} and truth as you once embraced false doctrines. Once again I am saying "let there be light". Light is my revelation which provides illumination. This is what will illuminate your path. TRUTH. You must lose fear of man and fear of rejection. Those who embrace my truth are free. Those who are bound need my truth, for my truth brings freedom!

Don’t be afraid to step out of "confinement". I have placed in you your gifts and anointing and they will match the calling! What you are feeling is the call of nature. MY NATURE. My nature is to set free!!! Quit talking to each other and talk to others. You are not bringing division, but FREEDOM!!

With this FREEDOM will come responsibility. I will not call you to do anything without my anointing. The responsibility of freedom is to set others free.

The time is nigh and is at hand. I will do my part. You do your part. Your part is to move by my Spirit! I will lead. The time of confinement, ineffectiveness and work is over. My yoke is easy and my burden is light. If it’s not light and easy, it’s not of me!!!! There is always rest and joy in what I call you to do.

Rejoice and dance in the meadow like David, for you are my love, my dove, my fair one.

Hi Clay,

Just read David Hallowell's response to those readers that took offense to his posting regarding "Church Membership and other related subjects.

Well, once again truth as shaken the heavens. Reminds me of some of the narratives in the Bible of Jesus and the religious leaders of His day. We all know the stories....we have heard them all of our church and Sunday School lives...except they always related to those Sadducees and Pharisees in the Holy Scriptures. Surely, they don't apply to leaders that came after the death of the Apostles?

Traditions of men to keep other men in bondage to sects and denominations.

I told you David, as well as Art Katz were not always comfortable men to be around. This writing is a good example of that fact. The truth of the matter, is that all of the things that David so well expressed in his posting regarding the Catholic and Orthodox are the TRUTH. It is all documented in world history.

I do not believe that David was attacking Catholics but he "Traditions of men"...While we are on the subject, this is also true of Pentecostal, Charismatic, and Protestant denominations. Controlling of "members" by laws and traditions is an old ruse to get followers to stay in the "sheep pens" and give of their money, time, and attention spans.

Well, I could write more, but I think David said it all.

Blessings,
Nancy Deane
Melbourne, FL
nandea@webtv.net

P.S. Just in case there was a question, I am a dedicated church member, to the church that God has called me to support with my time, money and most importantly my prayers. I will continue to attend and support that particular "part of the Body of Christ" until the Spirit of God directs me to do other wise.

Hi Clay,
Jerry's subject is a matter of interest to many people in this day and age. My pastor put it this way: if you move from church to church, then you are the problem; for whatever reason you are using to move on, it will follow you because it is part of you. That is only half the story though. Any pastor who worries about people leaving and who they might take has a problem. In both cases, ungodly problems. "Church membership" does that to people. Personally, I do not believe "membership" driven churches are of God. We are to become working, living, breathing members (partaking of the Spirit) of the body of Christ; not a man made organization.

Examples: when I can, I visit a local church - one of the Calvary Chapels - where there is no membership. I like their Bible studies and worship; but I do not like the rigid, organized meetings which are so formatted because the pastor tapes all his teachings and sells them in the book store (no sermons, only teachings - which is why Calvary Chapels have such high attendance).

Another example is a church I became a member of and was immediately made the clerk or secretary (whatever). I actually split that church up just being there because there was hanky-panky going on in the books and I would have caught it. So the pastor and half of us left. His mum was my best friend at that point. I had transportation problems and could not follow the rest to a new church home and no one there would return my calls or letters. I have not heard from a one of them since. Its like they abandoned me because they thought I should follow them to a new "home". To be honest, I want more of God and neither place offers more. The former is too ritualized and the latter found people bouncing off the walls in holy ghost rapture a lot of the time. Some where in between, the Real Spirit of God can be found.

What I am asking is this: what is "church"? I thought each of us as Christians was the church of God/His abode. He comes to dwell in US, not some building made by hands. And where two or more are gathered in His name, there will He be - and there will be all the elements you find in a building - praise, worship, Bible studies etc. The only reason any of us should be attending a building is to fellowship; to be of help and encouragement as the Lord leads; to join in prayer as intercessors - to give of ourselves and resources for the Just cause of God. Mandatory membership is ungodly at best. If we were really being led ONLY by the spirit of God, our hearts and minds would be tied together by the Spirit of God even with miles separating us. We would be doing what He wishes, together, yet separated, because we were in the mind of Christ. That's the way it is supposed to work. I have read about such instances - the 1902-3 revival in Wales comes t o mind here. Christ came to set the captives free; man's ways only place the captives in heavier bondage. We are to be devoted to Christ - and only Christ; not the ways of man. The more devoted we are to Christ, the more he can and will use us, whatever that may entail. Memberships in buildings only bring about carnality on every side; not that God cannot or will not use such things: but he would prefer we abandon our religious games and habits, to seek Him totally and completely. The problem with "church" buildings is they give cover to the irreligious, they breed all kinds of ungodly things like pride, habitual practices, even self serving practices, and most of the time, the Holy Spirit has to take a back seat to church protocol.

I think it is no one's business where you or I fellowship, or how we fellowship. It is between each of us and God how, when and why we fellowship. It is He we should seek to please - not man and his carnal organizations and mutterings.

Where David's comments are concerned - true enough; all of our festive holidays are man made and not of God. They are commercial driven and not a one is God ordained. God does not call on us to give glory to other men or special days or whatever; He does call on us to give praise, worship and glory to Him, as His loving children.

While on the subject of ungodly manmade holidays, I would add something else here that will stir controversy. Way back when certain events of Christ's life were being bastardized or made abominations by man, certain doctrine (now deeply set manmade traditions) also were thought up to keep believers in line, in fear, under control. A couple of them were the introduction of the belief of hell's fire and damnation (around the 4th or so century) and the other was dreamed up by a man named Scofield - the fly away (rapture) fantasy in the mid 1800's. This is another reason why I do not attend my church so often anymore; since 9/11, every one there talks about flying away out of trouble. The Bible I read tells me to put on the whole armor of God, pray always with all prayer and supplication and stand strong in the faith against the wiles of evil, not put on my running shoes and get ready to bolt. How people can quote verses from Eph chpt 6 and talk about a 'rapture' in the same breath is beyond me.

As for the hell's fire theory, just something thought up around the 4th century to keep congregations under control. We each have our own personal hell's fire and damnation whenever we choose evil ways over God's ways. Since all sin and the last enemy death will eventually be destroyed in the Lake of Fire (which is God) as the Bible tells us, burning in hell for ever makes no sense. Either it is a lie of the devil or the Bible speaks an untruth. I have read Tommy Tenney's book "The God Chasers" in which he relays his experience with chasing and almost catching God - his wake up call - a sort of revival at a church in Texas. I strongly recommend this book written by a very sincere man who really loves the Lord. In the first few pages he relays a miraculous visitation by the Lord to a church one Sunday; the visitation lasted for a few weeks and during those weeks, many were brought to the Lord and baptized. Many of the people were not Christians and found themselves parking where ever near that church and walking through the doorway not knowing why they were there. Think of it - hundreds or thousands of unbelievers coming to Christ without attending church, being preached to, evangelized or whatever. HOW??? A visitation of the Spirit of the Lord, prayed for by a few people; these people humbled themselves before the Lord, repented and prayed for other Christians and humanity and the Spirit of the Lord hung around the area for days, drawing people into the area. The Spirit of the Lord is stronger than ANY evil that exists on earth, either inside of humanity or outside. The Lord WILL have all his people to be saved. You would rather believe the traditions of man? That's your choice. It is certainly easier to believe what is popular than that which is truth. Jesus and the disciples faced the same challenges and they said that those who were Christ's would too. So be it.

Blessings to all,
Linda :)
lindasbeat@earthlink.net

Dear Brother Clay --

I have been following the articles regarding church membership and can't tell you how very timely this is in my life right now. I feel as though the Lord is using all this to begin to bring a long-awaited answer regarding this very issue.

I've been struggling over the past several years -- listening intently for a clear word from the Lord that will allow me to move from where I presently go to church (a Calvary Chapel) -- to another church of HIS choosing. (As Linda mentioned in an earlier article, the Calvary Chapel mold is pretty much the same all over -- but I hope & pray there are some CC out there that are SPIRIT led) -- It's always the same: chapter & verse, week-in & week-out (we are currently in Matthew & HAVE been for over a year, no matter what is going on around us or in the Spirit) -- every bit man's agenda...no room for a spontaneous work of the Holy Spirit. However, I don't want to just jump from where I am now into another church out of frustration (I have plenty of that) or leave on bad terms (I don't believe in burning bridges -- just building them.) After all, these are all very wonderful, sincere, genuine brothers and sisters in the Lord... just serving Him with all they currently know.

Perhaps the reason I have not yet been allowed by the Lord to move on to a place I FEEL MORE FULFILLED is for the sole purpose of praying for the ones around me at CC to come into a fuller knowledge of the Presence of GOD.... and believe me when I say ONLY God Himself could make this happen in a CC!

There is no POSSIBLE way (at least in my church) that we could mistake anything around us as over-emotionalism or sensationalism. 20 minutes of really great (read: entertaining) contemporary 'praise & worship' will never bring you into the Throne Room of God. I would love to have just one service where God would show up!! If...no, WHEN the Lord reveals Himself to us as a corporate body, there will be no doubt. The difference will blow the doors off the building! -- But I digress.

We are starving in the Spirit. With all the CC teaching of the Word, one would think that we would all be very well fed. RIGHT? No. The only way one is satisfied in the Spirit is by SPIRITUAL food. What we are ingesting is carnal understanding of spiritual truths -- and that's a little like eating rice cakes (a.k.a.: Styrofoam). You may be able to eat a lot of it, but in the end you are still empty & malnourished...and very unsatisfied, because all the while, you remember what REAL food tastes like. (anyone that has ever experienced a REAL encounter with the Holy Spirit or the Beloved Bridegroom, Jesus.... will tell you -- nothing else will ever do!!!! And you will instantly & forever be able to discern the difference between the man-built, man-sustained agenda and GOD'S anointed word going forth in power with revelation and understanding being imparted. HUGE difference...one that your very life depends on! )

On a side topic... I, too used to be a very hard-core pre-trib rapture believer. (It's kind of a prerequisite if you are a CC-ite) However, it seems the closer we get to the Lord's return, the less I believe this doctrine. I am having a REAL hard time finding it in the Word. (Maybe because it isn't there???) Of course, I can't even broach this subject with most folks I know... I'd be thought an absolute idiot (don't you know all of us CC people are 'scholars'??) :-)

Thanks for bearing with me. And thanks for having this open forum so those of us out here that can't talk to anyone else can share & glean from other's wisdom, too. May God continue to RICHLY BLESS YOU!!

Connie H onfireforJesus@comcast.net

Dear Connie,

I offer some food for thought:

Perhaps the screw of religious bondage is being loosened. Jerry Bell's original question about church membership has touched the nerve of a major question circulating throughout the Body of Christ. The many comments that have come as a response to this most important question are strongly representative of the restlessness and hunger felt by individuals in Churches everywhere, not just America.

The greatest way to fight your enemy is to know his tactics. Satan is extremely territorial and one of his primary missions is keeping people contained. As long as they are relegated to the containment or imprisonment of his choosing, in which nourishing spiritual food cannot be consumed, the starvation process can continue. As with our physical bodies, starvation will first weaken our condition and ultimately kill us. Satan also knows that if he can wrap anything is religious (supposedly spiritual) cloth he can likely sell it to many in the Body of Christ. He also capitalizes on our false need to project being "a nice person." This lie and the cloak it is wrapped in is also soaked in religion.

Importantly, nourishing spiritual food is vital to our existence - with that in mind, our hunger, or perhaps better said, famished condition is God's way of speaking to us, perhaps differently from ways we are familiar with, but never-the-less, God's voice.

One of the most often used tricks of the enemy on suffocating, starving saints, who are dying spiritually in the environments in which they find themselves IS THE LIE, "You must stay here and pray for the others, or, pray for the pastor." This very pious and religious sounding self sacrifice has kept a many a saint in bondage, and in a "weakened condition" which ultimately served Satan's goal of containment. This is not to say that some (you) are not legitimately called for exactly that purpose, but if that calling is true, the "called one" will be sustained and invigorated spiritually for the challenge.

As I have mentioned before, there are many articles on the website at www.lighthouseprophecy.com that deal with "Restlessness" and many of the deceptions of the enemy to keep us within his boundaries.

In Him,

Clay

Clay,

Once again, you've both hit two terrible nails smack on the head! Thank God for you! Why don't we hear more of this in the large prophetic ministries? I'm so weary of lagging behind and wasting precious time in the name of deferring to and leading the weak, while my spirit and soul languish.

Jane schaechj@yahoo.com

Hi again Clay,

And Connie in turn struck a cord within me - again!

I think the only answer any of us will really have as to whether we stay or go - can be found in the Lord only! If we are steeping in confusion, it is because we are not clearly hearing him as to where we should be. It is because we listen to our selves or others over the voice of the Lord. God is NOT the author of confusion; but self and Satan are.

Honestly, I have not felt inclined to go to CCSB (Calvary Chapel South Bay) of late - except for 2 Thursdays ago. Then I sat in the pew and prayed over and over for our pastor and the body (especially the pastor) to give them selves over to the Lord so he could do his thing. Our pastor is starting special prayer services in Jun and that will go on through the summer (there are not a whole lot of prayer warriors in our large group). He is having every one to read about the revival in Wales in 1903-5. But that was then, this is now. This pastor wants revival, and he does have a heart for the Lord; but he does not/cannot see that he is the main one standing in the way of a true move of the Spirit within that body. He has himself convinced that when teachings are going on in the Bible, that the Holy Spirit, would never interrupt "himself" (this is what the pastor says - and to me it implies that every/all Bible teachings are from the Holy Spirit). This is what happens when some kind of commercialism comes in (ref him selling tapes, books and videos etc). It is very sad. Maybe praying for the pastor etc does sound old or trite: but it surely is needed. Some of the people in the Wales revival had prayed for decades for a move of the Lord before it came about/was time. We MUST become much more sensitive to the voice of the Lord in all matters. I truly think that is the answer for today.

Connie is right about CC's: they believe in the gifts of the Spirit etc, but only allow for them during special prayer meetings (what they call the "after glows" - which I do not think we even have at ours) or perhaps the separate house meetings. You can't expect the Spirit to visit and permeate if you restrict him.

One other thing: Connie mentioned being or not being well fed: No matter where we go and who we hear or what kind of food it is, our being well fed or not really depends upon how fully we digested what we hear and how much of it we apply to our life. I have always found something of value: however, for those truly on fire for the things of the Lord - those who yearn for more - they do need to do something different to satisfy their hunger pains. Perhaps this is why I have been so restless myself of late. Just knowing what could be vs. what is. It is hard to sit in most churches when your heart and mind KNOW that there is some thing better somewhere.

We might turn our thoughts towards Paul: look at his life. He was ALONE with the Lord for 3 yrs or so and then went about teaching/preaching etc. He was led to the Lord, taught by the Lord and then led by the Lord.

I would invite Connie to mail me direct if she would like to talk.

In Him, Linda lindasbeat@earthlink.net

Linda,

I stayed bound to a church, pastor, and congregation far past my time, simply because I didn’t recognize that God could and often does speak in different ways. I clung to my past traditions as to how God could speak to me.

The method of communication that He placed in my heart several years ago was birthed from the scripture "He will give you the desires of your heart." Scripture further reveals to us "God controls the heart of the king." Simply said, God puts desires into our hearts for His glorious purpose and often this Godly produced desire is His communication or direction. Jeremiah (the entire chapter) is an excellent example of God speaking to through his (Jeremiah’s) broken and burdened heart.

At any rate I thought this article might be helpful. It is posted on our website at www.lighthouseprophecy.com.

While I do not feel that this word is for everyone, I do sense it is for those who have ears to hear it. Several years ago the Lord spoke to me and said, "Ignorance often comes disguised as tradition." This very profound statement began to awaken me to things in my life that kept me bound and in some cases defeated, and since this writing is not about that particular revelation, I think the mentioning of it is important in embracing an understanding of yet another way in which God speaks to his people. It is particularly relevant in this time of upheaval and change taking place within the church worldwide.

For years, I accepted the more traditional ways of God saying or speaking to me in a still-small voice deep within my heart. I would often extend myself past obedience awaiting His comforting voice to direct me. Of late, He has exposed yet another element of communication which I accept as normal, Godly and accurate. This particular aspect of God’s communication originates from the Holy Spirit and is often aimed at the soul of a man: It comes in the form of restlessness, discomfort, and even anxiety. I have also determined through the direction of the Holy Spirit, that often this method of Godly communication is aimed at us when our soul’s traditions have built walls around us, walls that block the flow of the Holy Spirit to freely communicate with us.

In recent past situations God has used restlessness in specific areas of my life in order to introduce mammoth changes that were about to occur. My religious and often traditional mind-set fought against this, even feeling guilt and condemnation for the way I felt. At another point in my life, God spoke to me and said, "Anything growing will change, be open, be flexible, be willing to change." As I pondered this, I soon realized that growth requires change and our basic human nature is to resist. There are many in the Body of Christ today who are sensing and feeling this restlessness and discomfort, even the desire for change. They sense that something is wrong but do not know what it is. These thoughts initially bring some degree of guilt but as they search their hearts further, they realize that what they are feeling is not out of order. They find that deep within themselves they are in conflict with the order of the present day church, especially those under a hierarchy absent of the five-fold ministry.

God is a God of order and anything short of His order will not be blessed with His anointing and favor in this hour. The saints of God are feeling this restlessness and seek their destiny and divine purpose. The word of God is clear; the perfecting of the saints will come through the five-fold ministry. Without it, destinies cannot be fulfilled. We have come to an hour and time in which the Holy Spirit has increased His presence in our lives and the cry within us is to fulfill our calling. The restlessness within each of us is directional. Listen, and you will be guided to the people and places that God has chosen to assist you in fulfilling your destiny. Recognize and remember that soul ties and traditions often impede progress and though we cannot speed up God’s timetable, we can slow it down.

The word clearly tells us, "tradition makes the word of God to no effect." If you sense restlessness, ask the Lord why and be careful that your traditions and soul ties do not impede your destiny. Anything growing will change, be open, be flexible, be willing to change. The Spirit of God is moving to and fro upon this earth, setting order and change in the church. He is moving even now to fulfill His great plan. If you sense restlessness and a sense of departure from what has been normal and traditional in your spiritual life, no doubt God is launching something new. As you seek Him with an open heart, His direction for your life will become clear.